Vortex Hubs?

[Ron in Atlanta]

Stopped at the Atlanta Boat Show the other day and noticed that the local Pathfinder dealer is selling their boats on new Ameritrail trailers and that the caps on the ends of the hubs looked like this...

Now I've had water intrusion into the hubs resulting in pitted bearings a few times.  I have the old style rubber caps that push in but are clearly not totally water tight.  I thought these were simply better caps for the ends of the axles but no, they are part of a new style hub, the Vortex Hub from Tie Down Engineering ( I always wonder what women think when they meet someone at a party who says that they, "are an engineer at Tie Down Engineering"😊).

Vortex hubs are $85 each plus labor.  Do you think it's worth the upgrade??

Being in Atlanta, I do trailer quite a bit to get to salt water.  Or ANY good water for that matter.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Ron in Atlanta
Spell check mishap

[bernieNC]

Come maintenance time it would be a good upgrade. 

 

 

[FINCHASER]

I just recently got a set so not much use on them but when I first saw them I knew I wanted them.  Im not sure about the warranty part.... I really dont think any axle seal is gonna hold up near that long.... even if the seal part does the rust on the body of the seal gets pretty bad after a year or so and have had a few fail due to that.  For me the most common failure point to allow water in was that rubber cap, so eliminating that should be a huge win.  An xtra bonus is the threaded cap.... A it wont rust B its ez to remove, I always hated beating off the old style and having to replace them simply because they got banged up. 

[HoneyB]

I’m in the “man I want to upgrade” too. I just have not done the homework yet to see the actual part numbers to use. I hope to get mine done this year before I start towing too much. Always something to spend money on as you guys know very well 
 

[Bamaskeet]

With almost 40 years experience working for the the worlds largest bearing and seal manufacture, I have an opinion on how to get good life from boat trailer bearings.

The number 1 problem is water intrusion.  Despite what many grease manufactures promote, water contaminated grease severely effect the performance and life span of the bearings.  Less than 1% water in the grease significantly effects the oil’s viscosity along with the inherent corrosion issue.  So when the hubs get water in them, you have reduced oil viscosity which creates metal to metal contact along with corrosion.

 

The way I see it, there are two ways to get long life from good quality, properly installed bearings and seals.  

1.  Prevent water intrusion by using quality, garter spring seals running on, baby bottom, smooth shafts.  I find using “Bearing Bras” over the rubber plugs to be very effective in preventing water intrusion thru the dust cover.

2.  Immediately regrease the bearings after every launch, flush’s water out of the hub before it can damage the bearings.

[Ron in Atlanta]

On 1/24/2020 at 7:04 AM, Bamaskeet said:

I find using “Bearing Bras” over the rubber plugs to be very effective in preventing water intrusion thru the dust cover.

Having been single until age 47, I consider myself a bit of an expert on bras.  Do these hook in the back, with 3 hooks which are near impossible to get undone with one hand or do they hook in the front?

Seriously, since we all agree that water intrusion is the biggest negative issue for bearings,  I think that I'll go with the Vortex Hubs when she goes in for the next 6 month service at the trailer place but until then, what does a bearing bra look like and where can I get one?

I tried Victoria Secrets but they walked me out the door when I asked.

[imsnookyrd]

I found a product similar to the Bearing Buddy Bra but it was sized ti fit over the 1.98" Posi-lube caps, they work great I  just left the rubber plugs in place so they are double protected.  Problem is I can't remember what site I found them on.

[Bamaskeet]

The rubber plugs in the dust covers are not very effective excluding water.  The bearing bras are simple rubber cups that tightly fit over the dust covers.  (Ron- it takes a little pressure to put them on, and pull them off!)

[SCFD rtrd.]

If you have ever done much wheel bearing replacements, you know that it's always (95% of the time) the rear bearing that is pitted or that has failed. So, I submit to you that it's not what's in front, but what's in back that matters. The rear seal rides on a metal spindle, that will eventually rust or pit. That pitting causes the rear seal to fail. Grease leaks out and water enters the rear of the hub, attacking the rear bearing.

The best solution is to sleeve the spindle with a stainless steel sleeve (readily available on-line) and cheap. This sleeve will not rust or pit and keeps the rear seal from failing. If you couple a stainless steel sleeve on the spindle with a quality triple lip seal, then you almost have it made. Add the Buddy Bearing bra as Bamaskeet recommends and you have the best system on the market.

[Bamaskeet]

16 hours ago, SCFD rtrd. said:

If you have ever done much wheel bearing replacements, you know that it's always (95% of the time) the rear bearing that is pitted or that has failed. So, I submit to you that it's not what's in front, but what's in back that matters. The rear seal rides on a metal spindle, that will eventually rust or pit. That pitting causes the rear seal to fail. Grease leaks out and water enters the rear of the hub, attacking the rear bearing.

The best solution is to sleeve the spindle with a stainless steel sleeve (readily available on-line) and cheap. This sleeve will not rust or pit and keeps the rear seal from failing. If you couple a stainless steel sleeve on the spindle with a quality triple lip seal, then you almost have it made. Add the Buddy Bearing bra as Bamaskeet recommends and you have the best system on the market.

I agree with everything SCFD said except the triple lip seals.  Seals need lubricant just like the bearing.  Unless you are separating two different fluids, only one lip of a multi lip seal will get lubricated.  The others will be dry and wear away.

A good quality, single lip seal with a garter spring, running on a “baby bottom” smooth shaft will give you your best chance to prevent water intrusion.

[SCFD rtrd.]

That makes perfect since.

[Dale Nelson]

What do you guys think about the composite seals, I used them last time but had to be very careful not to push them out while adding grease.

[NCTribute]

On 2/3/2020 at 7:43 AM, Bamaskeet said:

I agree with everything SCFD said except the triple lip seals.  Seals need lubricant just like the bearing.  Unless you are separating two different fluids, only one lip of a multi lip seal will get lubricated.  The others will be dry and wear away.

A good quality, single lip seal with a garter spring, running on a “baby bottom” smooth shaft will give you your best chance to prevent water intrusion.

Triple lip seals have been around a long time, they provide some redundancy for keeping grease from escaping and the outside seal is typically a dust seal to prevent contamination from entering. PTFE materials are self lubricating and are good up to 500F+, so they are designed to run dry. Yes, they do wear, but still have enough life that the material property changes due to aging are the main culprit. 

You have to be careful about too smooth of a running surface, you actually need some surface texture for the oil to cling to that will maintain a an oil film, super smooth surfaces will not keep an adequate film thickness.

Have worked on this for parts needing single digit micron tolerances using different patterns and laser pockets, ends up just tumbling the parts with ceramic media to get random marks is the best solution for most cylindrical parts.

[Bamaskeet]

23 hours ago, NCTribute said:

Triple lip seals have been around a long time, they provide some redundancy for keeping grease from escaping and the outside seal is typically a dust seal to prevent contamination from entering. PTFE materials are self lubricating and are good up to 500F+, so they are designed to run dry. Yes, they do wear, but still have enough life that the material property changes due to aging are the main culprit. 

You have to be careful about too smooth of a running surface, you actually need some surface texture for the oil to cling to that will maintain a an oil film, super smooth surfaces will not keep an adequate film thickness.

Have worked on this for parts needing single digit micron tolerances using different patterns and laser pockets, ends up just tumbling the parts with ceramic media to get random marks is the best solution for most cylindrical parts.

SKF (Chicago Rawhide) recommends shaft smoothness of 16-32 rms.  That’s baby bottom smooth.  Becareful with PTFE (Teflon) seals.  Despite Teflon’s reputation, they are very aggressive and are only recommended running against harden surfaces. 

[Deezer]

Hey Ron,

I was curious as to whether you've updated your trailer hubs to the new Vortex? If so what trailer shop do you use...I too am in the Atlanta area.

Thanks,

David

[Ron in Atlanta]

22 minutes ago, Deezer said:

Hey Ron,

I was curious as to whether you've updated your trailer hubs to the new Vortex? If so what trailer shop do you use...I too am in the Atlanta area.

Thanks,

David

David,

No, I have not yet upgraded to the Vortex hubs.  They are $85 or so each, plus whatever labor my shop will charge, so given the uncertain (to say the least) economic times, I'll stick with the originals for now.

I do have a trailer/hitch shop that I recommend highly, Pat Rodgers Hitch House in Kennesaw.  They are right next door to Bay Marine, the local Pathfinder dealer in this area.  I've been dealing with Mrs. Rodgers for years, all with good results.  12 years ago, I bought a new Corvette and needed a hitch installed.  Back then, I was racing an 18 foot cat sailboat made from carbon fiber which weighed less than I do (I'm 178 lbs).  I called Mrs Rodgers and asked if they could do this job.  "Sure we can, just bring her by next Tuesday and we'll take care of it".  I was nervous and told her so when I got there.  She reached into the cash register, handed me a $5 bill and told me to go to the restaurant across the street and order a Margarita.  By the time you get back, we'll be done with the job.  

The install went very well, I owned the car for 10 years without any problems.  You can just barely see the hitch between the exhaust pipes.

They have serviced all my boat trailers ever since.  Now that they have moved next door to Bay Marine, I can have the 100 hour service done on the boat motor and Bay Marine can take it over to Mrs Rodgers for trailer service, if needed.

Pat Rodgers Hitch House 770 427 7428.  Tell Mrs Rodgers that Ron Goldfarb sent you!

Good luck 

[jchern]

I’ve had the vortex hubs for 18 months. They are truly maintenance free and  haven’t had any issues with them. 

[Deezer]

Thanks Ron....I used to call on Pat when he and a partner had a tackle shop above his old location...25 or so yers ago. He was a great guy...

 

[fishmanjj]

On 1/23/2020 at 10:03 AM, Ron in Atlanta said:

Stopped at the Atlanta Boat Show the other day and noticed that the local Pathfinder dealer is selling their boats on new Ameritrail trailers and that the caps on the ends of the hubs looked like this...

Now I've had water intrusion into the hubs resulting in pitted bearings a few times.  I have the old style rubber caps that push in but are clearly not totally water tight.  I thought these were simply better caps for the ends of the axles but no, they are part of a new style hub, the Vortex Hub from Tie Down Engineering ( I always wonder what women think when they meet someone at a party who says that they, "are an engineer at Tie Down Engineering"😊).

Vortex hubs are $85 each plus labor.  Do you think it's worth the upgrade??

Being in Atlanta, I do trailer quite a bit to get to salt water.  Or ANY good water for that matter.

Ron,  I just recently replaced my torsion axles, hubs and the works on my 10 year old AmeriTrail.... I ordered direct from Tie Down Enigineering in Atlanta and went with the Vortex hubs that have a screw on cap and a huge “O” ring to seal it up. You know I’m in Savannah and use several different ramps depending on where we are fishing...so my trailer gets dunked a good bit. After about a dozen times in / out and several trips down to St Simons Island on I- 95...I decided to unscrew the caps and inspect the condition of bearings, etc. They , all four hubs inside were totally dry with absolutely NO water intrusion. I’m impressed with the seal of these. 

As you can see...my wheels have not had the Ron’s super Zaino cleaning lately....I spend more time fishing than polishing...but one day when I retire like you have....I’ll join the Zaino team.

Thats my two cents on the subject.  JJ

[Ron in Atlanta]

3 hours ago, fishmanjj said:

Thats my two cents on the subject.

First place, let me say that with your experience out on the water, what ever you have to say here is worth way, way more than two cents.

Yes, when I first understood what these actually were (more than just a better cap) I was all set to order up 4 of them for my trailer and stop worrying about water intrusion.  Unfortunately, shortly after that, the virus hit the fan, so to speak and all discretionary purchases were off the table - for now.  Once things stabilize somewhat, I think I will go ahead with the Vortex hubs.

Here is a nice story about Tie Down Engineering.  

10 years ago, when I had purchased my first Pathfinder, I bought two Danforth anchors for it, a 5 lb Hi Tensile and a 5 lb standard as a lunch hook.  Both new anchors arrived with very poor galvanized plating jobs.  There were sharp chunks of plating  material all over the anchors, they were so rough that I was worried that Laurie, who usually handles the anchoring would have cut her hands badly.  I assumed that a formally great product, Danforth, once produced here in the US, was now being manufactured in China with the expected loss of quality.  I went to call Tie Down to ask about the issue and noticed that they had a local number.  Turns out they are in Atlanta, just South of the Airport. I threw the two Danforths in the back of the Corvette and drove on down there.  There were a few buildings so I parked in front of one that looked like the offices, got out and took both anchors out of the car, placed them on the ground near the car (it looked like I was anchoring the Vet rather than using the parking brake).  A gentleman was exiting the building, "is this Tie Down Engineering?" I asked.  "What is it you are looking for?" he asked.  "Customer Support".  He told me that this was the right building and he was about to get in his car but stopped, turned around and asked what I needed to see Customer Support about. I told him about the poor plating job and he said, come with me, I'll take you there.  We walked in to someone's nice office and my escort said, "Please get this gentleman two new anchors and lets sit down and talk".  Turns out my escort was Mr.Chuck MacKarvich, President of Tie Down Engineering and the office belonged to the Vice President of Quality Assurance. Chuck explained that the Danforth anchors were manufactured right here, in the next building over, and he apologized for the poor plating job and promised that it would never happen again.

He could have just gone on his way after he saw me in the parking lot but he turned out to be the kind of executive that really cares about the products his company manufactures more than he cares about his stock options.  He made a customer for life that day.

Are the ramps down your way open?  Richmond Hill, Darien, etc.?  We do plan to come down on Memorial Day, if things are open and safe.  May have to wait until later in the Summer.

 

[fishmanjj]

First of all I received great service and customer support from Tie Down Engineering. A lot of people would be surprised at all of the Marine trailers, anchors and many other products they build and galvanize right there in ATL.  

Secondly.. yes the public ramps in Savannah, Skidaway Island, Tybee Island, Richmond Hill, Sunbury, Harris Neck, St Simons etc are all open. The Crab Company in Sunbury, Two Way Fish Camp in Darien, Golden Isles Marina , Jekyll Island are all open and the restaurants are open with social distancing practices being utilized. Please come down and support them.... 

let me know when you make a definite decision on your visit, the Tripletail are starting to show up and maybe we can put you on on one. 

JJ