Miss Jazzy Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 I’ve been inside my console for two days pretty much reconstructing my console. After adding a t top I found that my console was loose. I got that taken care of but I also had to remove my vhf antenna which was in the way of the t top. While trying think of the best way to route a new one to the top of the t top it got me thinking. With all the new technology we have why can’t they incorporate a distress signal through gps. Since the main reason I carry vhf is in case of emergency I can reach help. I know most if not all vhf have the distress button but that doesn’t work unless hooked to your gps. So why not be able to elimination the vhf all together. If your gps had a distress button it could reach help quicker and more accurate plus it would work anywhere whereas vhf only works line of sight. Just a thought than is running through my head.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelhooked Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 Miss Jazzy. The GPS system is a receive only system which receive signals at very low power levels and by law its illegal to transmit at GPS frequencies as it would interfere with the accuracy of the position signal. The VHF radio on the other hand transmit at high power (25W) to ensure reception as far away as possible. This way any distress signals with position can be received far away. That said you can buy units with GPS and VHF in one, but you will still need your VHF antenna to transmit any potential distress signals. If you do not want a big VHF antenna then you can buy a handheld VHF radio with a built in GPS but you will have to live with a much shorter range due to transmit power restrictions on handheld VHF's Tight lines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Troy Posted August 9, 2020 Report Share Posted August 9, 2020 It's already out there and called a EPIRB or PLB. VHF is designed for line of site communication and relies on someone in line of sight to be listening and willing and able to render assistance. IMHO regulations should require a EPIRB/PLB and a working VHF for all vessels. They are the most important safety equipment on a boat outside of a PFD. Boaters lives Matter!😉 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Jazzy Posted August 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2020 56 minutes ago, Capt. Troy said: It's already out there and called a EPIRB or PLB. Yes I understand but why couldn’t that same technology be incorporated into your gps. I not saying doing away with all other forms of notifying help, each has there place. I was just wondering why some kind of distress signal couldn’t be incorporated into gps. Adding another line of security should never be a bad thing. 😉 Besides the number of boaters with gps way out number the ones that carry EPIRB or PLB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Troy Posted August 9, 2020 Report Share Posted August 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, Miss Jazzy said: Yes I understand but why couldn’t that same technology be incorporated into your gps. I not saying doing away with all other forms of notifying help, each has there place. I was just wondering why some kind of distress signal couldn’t be incorporated into gps. Adding another line of security should never be a bad thing. 😉 Besides the number of boaters with gps way out number the ones that carry EPIRB or PLB. Kinda of like what was explained. Normal GPS is not a transmitter and why usage is free. It is basically a free receiving data logger. That is the reason everyone has one. There are a ton of devices that can greatly enhance your safety. Most require a monthly fee with the exception of SARSAT devices, Epirb/PLB. You just have to buy one and if smart you register it cause that is free also. Thus the reason I would love to see them become a requirement. They would save tons of resources on the rescue side and most importantly save many more lives than flares, horns and a whistle. The day will come that all cell phones will be satellite based and have service globally. Hopefully I won't live that long so when I am way offshore everyone won't be playing with their phone when that day comes. Here is where this is headed. I will soon "OCTOBER" be required to have a satellite transponder "VMS" on my charter boat. 3K for the equipment and 40 bucks a month to monitor 24/7 to allow me to run charters with my federal permits. The boat will never move for any reason without the feds knowing it. That device will not call for help, it will tell them where I died though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Jazzy Posted August 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2020 Thanks, like I said it was just a thought. Now I know. I agree, hope phones never work offshore. Unless it’s to take a pic mines stays n dry storage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCTribute Posted August 9, 2020 Report Share Posted August 9, 2020 11 hours ago, Miss Jazzy said: Yes I understand but why couldn’t that same technology be incorporated into your gps. I not saying doing away with all other forms of notifying help, each has there place. I was just wondering why some kind of distress signal couldn’t be incorporated into gps. Adding another line of security should never be a bad thing. 😉 Besides the number of boaters with gps way out number the ones that carry EPIRB or PLB. Also Garmin inReach and Spot. Personally I would not want (or pay for) my boat mounted GPS to have satellite communication, handheld makes more sense, if you swamp, roll over a boat or have a fire, boat mounted hardware may not be accessible. I have a Garmin inREACH Explorer +, but am inshore only. Also at my age good to have while in the mountains on the trout streams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Jazzy Posted August 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2020 After doing some research on vhf radios, handheld and fixed mount, I found that the distance of travel between the two are not much different. The main difference is that most mounted vhf’s have much higher antennas. I looked at the coverage map of the coast guard and it shows how far out you can transmit from 6 ft. Which is farther out than I go. Roughly 20 miles. Plus if I had a hand held I could get on top of my t top(crows nest) to add range if necessary. I have a fixed mount now but with the new t top I would need to add an antenna and mount. That’s almost as much as a good new handheld and I wouldn’t have to worry with running the wire up the frame and dealing with letting the antenna up and down every trip. Am I reading this correctly..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelhooked Posted August 9, 2020 Report Share Posted August 9, 2020 All fixed-mount marine radios can transmit at either 25W or 1W. The maximum power from a handheld is typically 5W or 1W. For normal handheld use (at five-watt transmit power), I found a transmit range of three-to-eight mile range from the cockpit using the handheld's antenna, compared to 15 to 20 miles with a fixed-mount radio (at 25 watt transmit power.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jh141 Posted August 9, 2020 Report Share Posted August 9, 2020 I must say I have never had a boat larger than 16' that did not have a VHF. These days my current boat has the distress button and it is registered (MMIS) and connected to my Lowrance so it can transmit my current GPS position. I consider it my backup. Where I fish is out of VHF range. Possible for the Coast Guard to maybe hear me but I would never hear them. A satellite solution is a must. PLB or EPIRB, AND something like a Spot. The Spot is a great solution for me. If I have a non life threatening problem I can easily get help without using rescue resources. I would not depend on a VHF. The fact is today the only time I ever use my VHF is last resort weather forecast, communicating with locks, docks, other vessels, or maybe law enforcement. Miss Jazzy, I think you would be more than ok with a hand held as long as you have other means to contact Search and Rescue. Reelhooked is 100 percent on hand held vs fixed mount. Like Capt. Troy said, VHF is Line of Site, a sail boat has great distance, antenna on a 60' mast, Sport fish has less, fly bridge, a center console even less with just a T top. A Bay Boat and Flats boat well, do not count on it even if you can see it. I would love to see company's like Simrad, Garmin, Raytheon look towards the ability to transmit GPS distress But as you can tell they are totally focused on seeing fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Jazzy Posted August 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2020 Yes but what I read the power of vhf doesn’t make it transmit farther whether its 5 or 25. Distance is controlled by antenna length and by tower height on land The difference was a 25w can punch through air traffic better and the signal is more clear. The fact is I rarely venture offshore and when I do it’s no more than 10-15 miles. Link:https://www.boatingmag.com/marine-vhf-radio-range/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jh141 Posted August 9, 2020 Report Share Posted August 9, 2020 Correct, That is the Theory, But the theory is not always reality. The real life situation is more watts more power more distance. Height of receiving tower ( Possible for the Coast Guard to maybe hear me but I would never hear them ) and height of transmitting tower ( a sail boat has great distance, antenna on a 60' mast ) make a difference. If you are 10 or 15 miles offshore and have an emergency it is more likely that your VHF is not the answer, thought it would be useful (vessel to vessel and a hand held would work) I would not go offshore farther than the weakest person on my boat could swim with out my PLB. For that matter I would not go in the water without a PLB. Think about this, of all the offshore small boat boating emergencys I have read about, been apart of or just tracked for knowledge, many have been in or caused by bad weather. VHF does not do well in lighting storms. Its after the fact that they come in handy. Safety conversions are good. Quote, why can’t they incorporate a distress signal through gps. We could ask the major manufacturers to think about it via e mail and social media, A PLB or EPIRB built into small vessel electronics. That is a life saving ideal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Troy Posted August 9, 2020 Report Share Posted August 9, 2020 If you want to be serious about this buy what is on the market today and register it. Epirb/PLB. Incorporating them into boat mounted electronics will do you no good in many emergencies. The boat gets in trouble of any kind your power to the electronics is the first to go. Fire, swamping, dead battery, capsize and your boats power is done. Your on board electronics are done including VHF. I have so much redundancy on my offshore boat it's crazy. Lose 12 volt power and it's all worthless. The Epirb is stand alone, waterproof,floats upright, fires a strobe and will transmit for 48 hours if your boat is on the bottom of the ocean. It will be tethered to me and will do it's job without me touching a thing. "try holding your PLB towards the sky in big seas while wearing a PFD"😳 For less than 500 bucks you can buy a high end ACR Epirb. Less money will buy you a PLB but be careful in the selection of those." do some serious research on PLB'S" People always argue about the spot locators, sat phones and all sorts of devices out there. There is only one device that is gonna send help without relying on the spouse or your buddy/second party to relay a call with proper info to a SAR team. Of course, you can spend the 500 bucks on a stereo instead. A little searching on the web will get you some info from the guys that are going to rescue you. They are the only ones that count in this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Troy Posted August 9, 2020 Report Share Posted August 9, 2020 EPIRB Versus PLB **As far as rescuers are concerned, there is little difference between a pocket-size PLB and a larger EPIRB. Determining which is best comes down to how equipment pros and cons match intended use. “The best beacon to have is the one you have with you when you need it,” says Chris Wahler, marketing manager for ACR Electronics (acrelectronics.com). “Having one on your person is much better than one still on the boat if you somehow get separated.” It’s hard to beat the peace of mind of a PLB tucked into a front pocket, particularly for those who boat alone or those aboard a small boat that might capsize. PLBs are also small enough to pack a spare inside a life raft and are perfect for ditch bags. But that pocket-size convenience comes at one important price. EPIRB antennas are designed to work best when the beacon is floating in the water. PLBs are waterproof and many float, but they transmit well only when kept above the water. “With a PLB, if that antenna is in the water, that’s where the signal is going to go,” Wahler says. “An EPIRB is autonomous. It floats in the best transmit position. You have to think about how you’ll use a PLB in advance. Treading water with one hand holding up that beacon is going to be difficult after a while.” Most PLBs include some sort of life jacket mounting provisions, but this assumes an able-bodied castaway. PLBs also have to be manually activated while all EPIRBs sold in the past two decades transmit automatically when out of their bracket and wet. EPIRBs also have double the battery life — minimum 48 hours in the harshest conceivable conditions. A PLB’s 24-hour battery should be plenty, unless weather prevents immediate rescue. All EPIRBs also include a strobe light to help assemble scattered castaways and increase visibility to rescuers. A few PLBs recently began to include LED strobes, which aren’t quite as bright as an EPIRB’s incandescent strobe light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Jazzy Posted August 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2020 I know all about the EPIRB and ACR and they are crucial for life threatening cases. My discussion was solely about vhf and the ability to contact someone in a non life threatening case But since you mentioned all the importance’s of having a EPIRB over a PLB. Aren’t EPIRB’s usually mounted to the boat? So if you get separated from your boat as in a boat accident and the boat goes down, your EPIRB is longer any use. A PLB tethered to you would be your only hope. So the best answer would be to carry all the for mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Troy Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 13 hours ago, Miss Jazzy said: I know all about the EPIRB and ACR and they are crucial for life threatening cases. My discussion was solely about vhf and the ability to contact someone in a non life threatening case But since you mentioned all the importance’s of having a EPIRB over a PLB. Aren’t EPIRB’s usually mounted to the boat? So if you get separated from your boat as in a boat accident and the boat goes down, your EPIRB is longer any use. A PLB tethered to you would be your only hope. So the best answer would be to carry all the for mentioned. Both of my Epirbs are not mounted to my boat. They have a strap and Lanyard to attach to your wrist or PFD. You can opt for a fixed mount auto deploy but I choose not to go that route for the reasons you mentioned. Having both a PLB and Epirb would be best especially if operating alone.. For non emergency situations there are plenty of options. VHF in most cases will get you in contact with someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnd Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 'Hopefully I won't live that long so when I am way offshore everyone won't be playing with their phone when that day comes.' heck, bring the grandkids on the boat and too often all they want to do... but get um hooked on a fish and their world changes for the better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F1sh0n Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 Huge difference between a panpan and a mayday. VHF you can describe your sitrep. GPS, likely instant mayday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F1sh0n Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 On 8/9/2020 at 1:44 PM, Miss Jazzy said: Yes but what I read the power of vhf doesn’t make it transmit farther whether its 5 or 25. Distance is controlled by antenna length and by tower height on land The difference was a 25w can punch through air traffic better and the signal is more clear. The fact is I rarely venture offshore and when I do it’s no more than 10-15 miles. Link:https://www.boatingmag.com/marine-vhf-radio-range/ Do you have a push pole? perhaps 2 long sturdy rods? a bit of duct tape and a antenna can be raised 15-20’ depending which helps greatly with the horizon and line of sight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4reds Posted September 18, 2020 Report Share Posted September 18, 2020 On 8/8/2020 at 10:01 PM, Miss Jazzy said: Yes I understand but why couldn’t that same technology be incorporated into your gps. I not saying doing away with all other forms of notifying help, each has there place. I was just wondering why some kind of distress signal couldn’t be incorporated into gps. Adding another line of security should never be a bad thing. 😉 Besides the number of boaters with gps way out number the ones that carry EPIRB or PLB. Ok couple things. First, as mentioned GPS is receive only due to the space craft (satellite) not being equipped with LNB's (Low Noise Blocker) or Receive transducers; these space craft are in low earth orbit roughly 10,000 miles from the earth's surface. They are not communication satellites which are much larger, equipped with an array of both transmit and receive equipment with low noise blockers, power amplifiers, modulators, demodulators, etc, a multitude of transducers covering a wide range of frequency bands (Ka, Ku, C, X), and attitude thrusters and sit in geosynchronous orbit at roughly 22,300 miles from the earth's surface. Long and short of it is, you would have to use the comms satellites to transmit your gps info for the greatest range. So even if there is a handheld GPS that can transmit its info some place, it won't be using the GPS space craft to transmit that info. And to confuse the matter more, satellite phones work on another set of space craft. When you look up, if you could see 10-25k miles into space, you'd see space craft all over the place, about one every degree with earth the center of the circle. As far as height of antenna and power of radio affecting VHF radio (Very High Frequency) 30-300 megahertz. The power of the radio only affects transmit, not reception, and will penetrate and travel a bit further than lower power units provided all else is the same. The frequency of the signal has a lot to do with transmission characteristics and capabilities. Lower frequencies travel farther but at slower speeds than high frequency. Lower frequencies also work better traveling through weather or other permeable/semi-permeable obstacles. Antenna height is important for line-of-sight (LOS) transmissions, taller antenna can see farther over the horizon, and the length of the antenna (not height) can be matched to the frequency used for the best receive and transmit capability. Antenna theory is a study on it's own, there are endless variables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Jazzy Posted September 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2020 Ok so let me ask this. Don’t the newer vhf’s have gps built in, yes they do. They give you the same location as a gps unit. So if you hit the distress on that vhf isn’t it sending out your location? If so couldn’t that same tech be used in a gps unit? I know they can’t do it now but why couldn’t they incorporate the two into one? Is there a law forbidding it? Maybe I’m just overthinking it🤪 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4reds Posted September 18, 2020 Report Share Posted September 18, 2020 38 minutes ago, Miss Jazzy said: Ok so let me ask this. Don’t the newer vhf’s have gps built in, yes they do. They give you the same location as a gps unit. So if you hit the distress on that vhf isn’t it sending out your location? If so couldn’t that same tech be used in a gps unit? I know they can’t do it now but why couldn’t they incorporate the two into one? Is there a law forbidding it? Maybe I’m just overthinking it🤪 I would imagine it can be done, however it would just be transmitting over VHF so same limitations on distance. Unless someone designed something to transmit using some other medium incorporated into the unit. *edit: I misread. I would think some kind of transmitter could be added to a gps unit, but it would have to transmit using some signal other than how it receives it's position. May make the unit bulky, and there may be FCC regulations regarding it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DavidG Posted September 18, 2020 Report Share Posted September 18, 2020 Just my own opinion but wish all would be mandatory under coast guard rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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