2300 HPS Major Hull Damage - Where do I go from here?

[dholley]

I purchased a used 2015 Pathfinder 2300 HPS in May of 2020 from a guide in SW Florida. The boat had 2100 hours, but structurally and mechanically appeared to be in good shape. The boat was primarily used on the Great Lakes as a freshwater guide boat. I negotiated a very good price on the boat due to the hours and cosmetic needs associated with a guide boat. I spent approximately 2 months working with my father to rewire the trailer, work on electrical systems, pumps, power poles, trolling motors, etc. 

The boat ran great and was a great platform for my wife and two you children. In January of 2021, the motor lost a cylinder. Luckily, the motor was still under warranty and Yamaha replaced the powerhead at no charge on my 250 SHO.

I primarily use the boat to fish the St. Johns River near my home in Jacksonville. The boat has been offshore less than a 6 times and only when conditions where 2-3 feet or less. The boat was never abused or rode hard since I've owned it. In January 2022, I started noticing more and more water in the bilge, but couldn't find the source of the leak. After checking the usual suspects, I lifted the boat off the trailer with a floor jack and found two cracks on each side of the boat directly under the bunks (inline with the stringers). The starboard crack being much more significant than the port side.

I contacted Pathfinder and they scheduled a visit in March. To keep it brief, Pathfinder was unwilling to assist in any repair.

I proceeded to speak with my insurance who subsequently denied the claim after reviewing the boat at a repair shop of my choosing due to the nature of the cracks on both sides. Insurance believes this is a manufacturing issue.

I proceeded with the same fiberglass shop to extent of the damage. We cut a floor section out to get a better view of the stringers and tabbing. Through a dye test we found the tabbing had separated from the bottom of the hull which created a significant vertical crack in the hull running lengthwise along the stringer. The 12"+/- crack was ground out only to find delamination in the hull bottom in a 2'x6' section around the crack on the starboard side. Port side has no delamination and appears to be structurally solid.

My cost to repair after speaking with multiple shops is somewhere in the neighborhood of $20-25K with no warranty. All the shops I've spoken to are nervous to do the repair and see significant risk.

Which brings me to my 3 options.

1. Sell as is. Not sure how much value there is in the boat, trailer, electronics, power poles, trolling motors, lithium batteries, etc.
2. Part it out. Really don't want to go this route although I would probably get more for the sum of the parts.
3. Fix and keep using it.

Full financial disclosure. I'm in the boat currently for about $45k. Cost to replace in like kind would likely be in the $65-70k range.

Any thoughts are appreciated. 

 

[Lap it Up]

Ouch!  I’m sorry for your loss.  Fixing a bottom is not easy work and a lot of folks won’t quote it because it can quickly turn into a can of worms.  I have had two MBG boats come apart similar to yours.  I went down the same road you are on, looking for someone to fix them.  The cost outweighed both boats and I ended up selling one as is and parting out the other.  Good luck on your search.  

[whichwaysup]

OH gosh. . . . Been there . . . done that.   Happy to talk to you and share thoughts - in the meantime, read my stringer thread (sticky in the general boating forum).   

Initial thoughts would be these:

1) Move slowly.   It will kill you to have this thing hanging over your head, but you will make a better decision the more time passes.   My boat sat for 6 months while I fought with insurance company and explored options to fix it.  In the end, it was valuable time to get my thoughts straight.   In fact, another 6 months probably would have saved me money and headaches, but more on that later.   

2)  Consider how much you like the boat.   After literally re-buying my boat (the repairs cost me the initial cost of my boat), I have exactly the boat I want and full confidence in it.   I often wondered, during the repairs, if I'd regret the decision to fix it.   I'm nearly 3 years out from finishing the repairs and can tell you with certainty that I made the right decision.   But, I loved the boat, loved the model, loved the size, love the look loved everything about it.   I might feel differently if I didn't love the boat.

3)  Whatever you do, do it with the absolute best shop you can find.   I made that mistake and I ended up living through a lot of hell when the first shop realized they had over committed, then the second shop got tired of the project, and finally got a third shop to finish the job.   All three shops did great work, but after the initial few weeks on a project like this, they lost interest.    5K extra to get the right shop is cheap.   An extra 10K is probably still worth it.  You will end up paying that anyway if you have to take it to multiple shops.

4)  Make every effort to truly uncover the real root cause.   In my case, there were several that came together.   Ultimately, a design "flaw" for my particular model was the underlying cause, but the trigger was my trailer configuration.   The design would have been fine under normal stress, but the trailer was perfectly configured to exploit the weakness.   We fixed both problems in the end.   

5)  If you fix it, make it better than new and DOCUMENT EVERYTHING.   You will eventually sell the boat.   A repair is automatically a black eye against the value, but the more transparent you are and the more you can reduce/eliminate the future sellers fears, the better.   I started a thread when I started the repairs and put everything on there - good, bad, and ugly.   I got GREAT feedback from this group and we did things differently (and better) because of the advice we got here.   Someday, when I sell my boat, I will point the buyer back to this forum.   The story is all there and they will know what they are getting.     In the end, we added some additional structural reinforcement, redid the wiring, new pumps, etc.   Every time I get on that boat, I know she's stronger and better than new.

I hate this for you.   Some really dark days ahead for you, but if you really like the boat, you will probably put 30k in it all in - and with inflation, still not be upside down too badly.   

Good luck and feel free to reach out.   Happy to talk.

[whichwaysup]

Oh, and another CRITICAL item if you do decide to fix it.   Don't just agree to a price for the project.   Map out the project IN DETAIL on paper, breaking it up into small, bite sized pieces, each with a punch list and a price.    That helps the shop really make sure they are comfortable with the project size and complexity, and if they get tired of it, you know exactly what you owe them.  If you want something else done, you make it a separate line item and separate cost.    I DIDN"T do that with the first shop and things got VERY ugly over how much I owed them for a half-done project.   As the customer, you have ZERO protection if the shop decides not to release the boat to you.   They can hold you hostage for the full amount (which is what happened to me).   The second shop and I mapped out the project and it made all the difference.   

 

[SouthernWake]

If this is the boat I’m thinking of I have talked in passing with the previous owner.

If There’s a crack on both sides with delam on one. I wonder if the long road miles along the bunk is what “caused” the crack.

[Wanaflatsfish]

3 hours ago, dholley said:

Full financial disclosure. I'm in the boat currently for about $45k. Cost to replace in like kind would likely be in the $65-70k range.

Any thoughts are appreciated. 

 

I would suggest you contact Richard the owner of Fiberglass by Design.  Tell him Dino recommended him.   His number is: 954 401 5668

 

He specializes in major marine/fiberglass repair and will be someone who will know how to get this fixed.

I have NO idea what the cost, all I know is you can trust him.

Google Fiberglass by Design and you can see his work.  He renovated my MA17 completely....for a fair price.

Everything is fixable......except your health....so, it's only money and it will be fixed by the right shop....Richard is that shop IMHO.

I know how you feel...I had a 2005 Pathfinder that delaminated 2x's...but, was under warranty and the factory stood by it and fixed it....I just saw her in an add for sale on the net the other day....she's still going strong

 

DC

 

[polliwog]

I can imagine the disappointment,I would be going ballistic. If you can absorb the loss I would consider moving on. Pouring good money after a bad situation can be painful for your health and well being.  I spent my life in Wall street so I've seen some major losses clients have had to take.  The lesson is to take the loss sooner rather than later.

Tough decision, good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[dholley]

1 hour ago, SouthernWake said:

If this is the boat I’m thinking of I have talked in passing with the previous owner.

If There’s a crack on both sides with delam on one. I wonder if the long road miles along the bunk is what “caused” the crack.

The boat was previously owned by a Minnesota fishing guide turned SW Florida guide. He was nothing but honest when we did the sea trial and inspection. I agree there were certainly more several thousand trailer miles on the hull. I brought this to Pathfinder's attention when they visited me in March. The response was if it was a trailer setup issue that would be on Ameratrail. I was kind of floored by the response since I'm sure Pathfinder helps with the setup since 99% of the new Pathfinders I see are sitting on Ameratrail trailers. There is no adjustment in the trailer as everything is welded.

[geeviam]

If only Superman were here...

 

 

[slyshon]

Would like to add a few facts that were omitted to this thread from the manufactures side…

Our Customer Service Manager met with the OP up in Jacksonville back in March to inspect the boat.  As I do in every case when our products are being questioned online, I inquired with our Customer Service team as to their findings, below is the email response I received:

“I inspected this vessel myself in Jacksonville. What he doesn’t mention in his statements, is that the hull had other cracks forward of the section that has hydro peeled. These cracks had 3M 5200 pushed into them, as a means to protect the bottom from water intrusion. The owner stated to me he did not do this, and it must have been the previous owner? I explained to him, if you breach your outer skin of the hull and don’t repair, this allows water in and will cause hydro peeling. This gentleman also was not a registered owner of the vessel in our system, never transferred warranty to his name during his ownership. On top of this, his hull warranty was expired. I informed him, that MBG would look at his boat and if we could find a cause of this damage and it was due to the failure in poor manufacturing process, we would entertain participation. We could not find in our investigation a failure during our manufacturing process. It was caused by neglect.”

We found cracks on the forward section of the hull that had been covered up with 3M 5200 sealant, we assume this was done by one of the previous 2 owners of this boat. The found cracks are impact related and allowed water intrusion into the hull.  This boat was sold originally back on 10/30/2014 into a commercial operation, the hull warranty expired on 10/30/2019 prior to the OP taking ownership.  Additionally, we found the Ameratrail Trailer bunks had been modified by one of the previous owners which might have furthered the current hull issues.

In response to the OP, yes, these issues are repairable.  Like others have stated above, I feel the prices you are being quoted for the repair work are crazy high.  Your issues can be corrected without taking the hull and deck apart, no need for that as the repairs can be made from the inside.  Our Customer Service Technicians are very experienced and are willing to share knowledge with your repair shop of choice as to how to make these repairs.

To summarize, while we feel bad for the OP, this is not a manufacturing issue but simply an impact/ neglect issue from a previous owner(s) of this boat.

 

Skip    

[whichwaysup]

12 minutes ago, slyshon said:

Would like to add a few facts that were omitted to this thread from the manufactures side…

Our Customer Service Manager met with the OP up in Jacksonville back in March to inspect the boat.  As I do in every case when our products are being questioned online, I inquired with our Customer Service team as to their findings, below is the email response I received:

“I inspected this vessel myself in Jacksonville. What he doesn’t mention in his statements, is that the hull had other cracks forward of the section that has hydro peeled. These cracks had 3M 5200 pushed into them, as a means to protect the bottom from water intrusion. The owner stated to me he did not do this, and it must have been the previous owner? I explained to him, if you breach your outer skin of the hull and don’t repair, this allows water in and will cause hydro peeling. This gentleman also was not a registered owner of the vessel in our system, never transferred warranty to his name during his ownership. On top of this, his hull warranty was expired. I informed him, that MBG would look at his boat and if we could find a cause of this damage and it was due to the failure in poor manufacturing process, we would entertain participation. We could not find in our investigation a failure during our manufacturing process. It was caused by neglect.”

We found cracks on the forward section of the hull that had been covered up with 3M 5200 sealant, we assume this was done by one of the previous 2 owners of this boat. The found cracks are impact related and allowed water intrusion into the hull.  This boat was sold originally back on 10/30/2014 into a commercial operation, the hull warranty expired on 10/30/2019 prior to the OP taking ownership.  Additionally, we found the Ameratrail Trailer bunks had been modified by one of the previous owners which might have furthered the current hull issues.

In response to the OP, yes, these issues are repairable.  Like others have stated above, I feel the prices you are being quoted for the repair work are crazy high.  Your issues can be corrected without taking the hull and deck apart, no need for that as the repairs can be made from the inside.  Our Customer Service Technicians are very experienced and are willing to share knowledge with your repair shop of choice as to how to make these repairs.

To summarize, while we feel bad for the OP, this is not a manufacturing issue but simply an impact/ neglect issue from a previous owner(s) of this boat.

 

Skip    

Wait a minute.   Are you suggesting that 5200 isn't the proper way to fix major hull damage?   Poppycock!    Next thing you'll suggest is that duct tape isn't perfectly suited to address a cracked transom.    Sheesh, you people just don't keep up with the latest trends in DIY boat maintenance!

Thanks for the other side of the story, Skip.   Been around this forum long enough to see that there always is one!

[jh141]

19 hours ago, dholley said:

The boat was previously owned by a Minnesota fishing guide turned SW Florida guide. He was nothing but honest when we did the sea trial and inspection. I agree there were certainly more several thousand trailer miles on the hull. I brought this to Pathfinder's attention when they visited me in March. The response was if it was a trailer setup issue that would be on Ameratrail. I was kind of floored by the response since I'm sure Pathfinder helps with the setup since 99% of the new Pathfinders I see are sitting on Ameratrail trailers. There is no adjustment in the trailer as everything is welded.

Dholley,

    I cringe at the prospect of your situation and am sorry this has happened But,  If this boat fits you and has a new power head I would take all of Whichwaysup's suggestions and get it repaired and continue to enjoy it. At current new boat prices and chancing getting into another used problem, you could enjoy this boat repaired for years with confidence. The 23 HPS is an Awesome Sled, Bring it back to life.

[Big Dave]

Call the Skiff Shop and talk with them.  They do magic.

[Wanaflatsfish]

On 5/17/2022 at 3:49 PM, Big Dave said:

Call the Skiff Shop and talk with them.  They do magic.

good call Dave...I didn't think about them....the best in the business on skiffs....my buddy is having is old action craft restored...the work is amazing.

DC

 

[redzone1]

Here’s what you do:

1) go to Miami and park the boat at a hotel in a sketchy part of town.

2) come back the next day and file your police report for the boat being stolen

3) make insurance claim for theft

4) go buy another boat

[Lap it Up]

12 minutes ago, redzone1 said:

Here’s what you do:

1) go to Miami and park the boat at a hotel in a sketchy part of town.

2) come back the next day and file your police report for the boat being stolen

3) make insurance claim for theft

4) go buy another boat

Useless advise once again 

[dholley]

I spoke with Pathfinder regarding the boat yesterday. They've put me in contact with a shop that does some of their warranty work. I've spoke with the owner and provided photos and descriptions of the issues. I'm waiting to hear back on a ballpark price to repair.

[polliwog]

You are on the right track now. The shop will give a clear idea of what is involved including costs. I'm sure that the MBG will get the boat back to it's original condition.  It is too bad in hind sight that a quality inspection wasn't done before purchase, Lesson learned.

[Wanaflatsfish]

On 5/19/2022 at 10:38 AM, dholley said:

I spoke with Pathfinder regarding the boat yesterday. They've put me in contact with a shop that does some of their warranty work. I've spoke with the owner and provided photos and descriptions of the issues. I'm waiting to hear back on a ballpark price to repair.

this is the BEST decision....

Whatever comes back, you know it will be an accurate estimate (sometimes things go sideways once they begin to cut and repair); however, you are taking it to a group that does this day in and day out....

Please keep us up to date, if you are so inclined, on the progress....

it's unfortunate, but, it's solvable.

dc

 

[Capt. Troy]

I am getting drug through the dirt on this on the THT.

Not going to say what I hope happens in respect for forum rules on this site.

 

 

 

 

[HoneyB]

I haven’t seen this delam thread over there. But that board is getting worse by the day it seems .. 

[NCTribute]

1 hour ago, HoneyB said:

I haven’t seen this delam thread over there. But that board is getting worse by the day it seems .. 

Can it be worse than MIcroskiff.com?

[Wanaflatsfish]

On 5/20/2022 at 6:04 PM, Capt. Troy said:

I am getting drug through the dirt on this on the THT.

Not going to say what I hope happens in respect for forum rules on this site.

 

 

 

 

Saw the thread.....I forgot the Popcorn....

100+ posts with very limited information other than BASHING MBG and Pathfinder....

The factory has done the best suggestion....take it to the refurb shop.

Very unfortunate the OP had not obtained a survey, I'm sure you'd have identified the problem....

DC

 

[SouthernWake]

On 5/20/2022 at 6:04 PM, Capt. Troy said:

I am getting drug through the dirt on this on the THT.

Not going to say what I hope happens in respect for forum rules on this site.

 

 

 

 

This made me go find it over there. Pretty comical on the uneducated jabs by some.

[RockyG]

I know these boats are stupid expensive, and it's very very tempting to look for a deal, but as a recreational angler I would be very wary of a boat used in a commercial operation. While a local guide might take great care of his one boat he buys new and flips every 2 or 3 years, a bigger operation usually just uses them as a tool. 

We see the same thing here in our shop. One machine is 5 years old, has been used like a hammer by multiple non-owner operators, and is nearly ready for the junkpile. The same brand, same age, owner-operator, with religious maintenance, is a solid machine that has years of life left in it even if the hours are similar. 

But, you are in it now. Like Skip said, find the right shop and get it fixed. Boats are stupidly expensive and the ownership of one completely contrary to smart financial planning.......but man they sure are fun.